22 MAY 1940

PURANI: Nehru is against Satyagraha at present in view of the condition of the Allies.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why don't the leaders come to an agreement?

NIRODBARAN: They are all still thinking and thinking.

SATYENDRA: Yes, they are doing constructive work.

NIRODBARAN: Charkha? Perhaps they are now waiting for Amery to make some move.

SRI AUROBINDO: He will be busy with the defence of England.

SATYENDRA: The German drive seems to be to encircle the Allies after they have reached the sea and then to attack the Maginot Line from the rear.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

PURANI: The Allies' position here seems to be the same as in Norway and Denmark with a narrow strip of sea between. The English Channel is only twenty or thirty miles wide. The Allies would be able to bring big navies there in case of a German attack on England.

SATYENDRA: Why not? And how will the Germans take their troops across?

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SRI AUROBINDO: Their position is not the same. In Norway they had no aerodromes. Here they have plenty of them.

NIRODBARAN: At present the thrust towards Paris seems have been suspended.

SRI AUROBINDO: They are driving towards the sea. After capturing the ports they will begin to attack England and continue their thrust to Paris from St. Quentin or other places.

NIRODBARAN: After capturing the ports their aim is to prevent the British from sending reinforcements to France.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, they can't do that. There will still be plenty of ports in the west and north-west.

NIRODBARAN: The French can't launch an attack against the Siegfried Line today.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is impossible now.

NIRODBARAN: Reynaud says that they have committed mistakes.

SRI AUROBINDO: A lot of them. They assume things. With Hitler one can't assume anything. He does what is unexpected. All these people go by scientific principles. Hore-Belisha is the only man who can do something new. Eden is good but not for this. He would be better as Foreign Secretary, and Irwin in the India Office where he could go on with his peace plan and appeasement. Pétain has something but he is too old.

SATYENDRA: Weygand?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know anything about him.

NIRODBARAN: Is there an occult influence behind the Allies as there is behind Hitler?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, they are all ordinary persons without any such influence pushing them.

NIRODBARAN: Ordinary persons against an Asura? A bad look-out!

SRI AUROBINDO: There is nobody among them who can receive the Divine Force to counteract the Asuras. The Mother has not found anyone.

EVENING

PURANI: Weygand seems to be hopeful of victory if they can resist for one month.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Z says she has found that the French are going to war with reluctance and with a defeatist mentality. In that case, I don't see how they can beat Hitler.

NIRODBARAN: But why is it so?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know. Perhaps they want to lead a comfortable life. They have given good resistance in other parts -only in the centre the main army has given way. In the battle of the Meuse they forgot even to blow up the bridges during the retreat.

PURANI: Herbert says that Hitler will get what he wants.

SRI AUROBINDO: France also? If that is the mentality, they will be defeated. It is a stupid and tamasically sattwic quality. It appears the Germans intend to occupy Ireland and make it a base to attack England and cut off supplies to her from America and other places. That is behind their plan to get to the coast. Ireland has only an army of 30,000. These plans were discovered in the custody of some Germans. And then along with Italy they will attack through Switzerland and crush France.

NIRODBARAN: But how will they carry troops there?

SRI AUROBINDO: I can't say.

PURANI: Jwalanti was telling me Neville Henderson says that in Germany even before Hitler the atmosphere of life had so much pressure that one felt constantly suffocated.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, practically all of Germany was like that. Boys and young men were being trained to be devilish. When there was some complaint against harsh treatment meted out by the German army, people said, "Wait till the Nazis come to power. Then you will realise what harsh treatment is."

23 MAY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: The German generals say that they are still not in contact with the main body of the French troops. Where are the troops? What are they doing?

SATYENDRA: They may come in at the end.

PURANI: The British Government has taken very strong measures.

NIRODBARAN: They say it has turned Socialist and Communist.

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PURANI: This is due to the Labour influence, probably.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. From individual liberty to totalitarian Socialism must be a great change, because it is against the grain of the British. Their whole history is a fight for individual liberty. In the last war also, they took such steps but they went back to their natural condition.

SATYENDRA: Lindbergh says that countries at war are bound to be dictatorial at one time or another. So he is against America joining in.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is all very well, but Hitler's next attack will be on America.

NIRODBARAN: The Allies don't seem to be able to resist German advance anywhere.

PURANI: It was the same in the last war. About two years afterwards they recovered their position.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not so long. It was at the battle of the Marne that the tide turned. At the beginning the English were running away before the German attack. There used to be wonderful stories by the correspondents. One war correspondent wrote that when the British army was running away, Sir John French was looking on a coolly smoking a cigarette. Then suddenly he started the counter-attack and the Germans were repulsed. What actually happened was that the German commander had outrun his support. Somebody saw this and the Allies, turning the flank, drove the German towards the Marne where the battle took place. The German commander had found the pursuit so attractive that he had forgotten about his over-advanced position.

SATYENDRA: The war will continue till 1942, according to astrology.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is the prophecy by the Theosophists. According to astrology, there is to be some set-back for Hitler in May. There is no sign of it yet.

NIRODBARAN: Still eight days to go. If they take Narvik, then-

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, then we can begin to think that the Allies will win. They want to take Narvik without the loss of a single man!

NIRODBARAN: But they have again changed their position against the Germans, it is said. What does it mean?

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SRI AUBOBINDO: Obviously it means retreat. They want to fight non-violently like Gandhi—without killing a single man to capture Narvik.

SATYENDRA: When Vidyarthi was murdered by a Muslim, Gandhi said that he would have considered it a great fortune if he could himself have given his life.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he would have expressed his love and gratitude to Vidyarthi for having given him such an opportunity. He would have said, "My dear fellow, how good you are to give me a chance to get murdered."

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): The Ashram has been declared a nest of pro-Nazis and pro-Communists by your friend the consul. He says he can even produce documents.

NIRODBARAN: Schomberg?

PURANI: Yes.

NIRODBARAN: A nice friend you have.

PURANI: He is quite capable of this. I haven't seen him for a long time. Most probably the talk in the Ashram has reached his ears.

SRI AUROBINDO: That undoubtedly. But if he has any written proof it will be serious. If some people have written from here to their friends and the letters have been intercepted and sent to him, he will have documents.

PURANI: Has the matter gone to the French Government?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, not yet. But he must have sent his report to the British authorities. And they can be nasty, especially if they go down in the war. They may write to the French Governor who then won't be able to defend us and, next, to the Minister of Colonies. The movement against the Ashram is growing, some reliable friends have told us. Of course, "we will try to counteract it but I don't see how it can be done. The danger is not only to the Allies but to us also. (Looking at Nirodbarari) I hear that H's place is a club for these discussions. Y and K go there, I am told.

NIRODBARAN: I don't know but it is quite possible. The other day H and Y were present -when I repeated what you had said — and H agreed.

SRI AUROBINDO : Then he shouldn't allow these talks.

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NIRODBARAN: Y, I think, is still unconvinced. He says he doesn't want Hitler to come to India but he does want him to win. It is difficult to rid him of his absurd idea.

SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler will act according to what Y wants or doesn't want? It is a very simple thing to see that Hitler wants world-domination and his next move will be towards India. But if Y goes on with such talk, evidently he doesn't care whether the Ashram should continue to exist.

PURANI: D also has such ideas and finds it difficult to dislodge them.

SRI AUROBINDO: You reported the Mother as saying something to Nolini. What was it?

PURANI : She said that if India were to get her freedom now, it would be catastrophic for her.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Mother didn't exactly say that. When Nolini said that it was because of the rancour against the British that people were talking in Hitler's favour, the Mother remarked that freedom at present would be dangerous to India, because India would play into the hands of Stalin. I am perfectly sure that if the Socialists and Communists don't get their way, they will call in Russia. SB may say Stalin is almost Asiatic.

PURANI: D says, "Let the Hindus and Muslims fight it out and see what happens. Some result will come."

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The Muslims will call in somebody and the Socialists somebody else. The Muslims may call in Mussolini because he proclaims himself defender of Islam. But he has removed half the Arabs from Tripoli and replaced them by Italians. India must get into the habit of freedom for about twenty or thirty years and then prepare for independence. To my mind the best thing is to have Dominion Status at present and then later on get ready for complete independence. India is a poor country, has no army, can't afford to have modern armaments. So long as she has no defence, she has to rely on others, unless the Socialists have a Kemal Pasha up their sleeves or a diplomat like Ismet Pasha who kept the enemy off till the country was prepared. Very difficult work. SB won't be able to do that.

PURANI: One Kemal Pasha won't do for India. There must be at least ten. If the Hindus and Muslims go on fighting with each other, other powers are sure to come in and a fresh subjugation is inevitable.

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SRI AUROBINDO : Certainly. That is from the national point of view. Spiritually Stalin and Hitler will never tolerate any kind of work like ours. Spirituality and liberty of conscience are impossible in their regime. The Socialists or perhaps the Communists may think that Stalin will give some autonomy as in Georgia or the Ukraine -but it is all humbug. Even in the Ukraine, their President was shot because he was too pro-Ukraine.

I have been reading that book of astrology. But there is not much of astrology there. It is a political and psychological treatment of persons and events, astrology coming in as a third factor only, where the stars regulate things. The author says that Hitler is playing into the hands of the army. The people will rise in revolt and kill him. His prophecies are obviously wrong. He says Chamberlain will bring in the reign of peace. Churchill won't be the Prime Minister. It is more or less propaganda for Chamberlain.

NIRODBARAN: R is also speaking in favour of the Germans. When Bansidhar told him the Mother did not wish that we should take sides with Hitler, he replied, "Sri Aurobindo says different things to different persons as Sri Krishna did to Arjuna, Vidura, etc. You don't know."

SRI AUROBINDO: R knows?

24 MAY 1940

PURANI: The British Expeditionary Force seems to be surrounded by two German contingents now. They have either to push through them or re-embark.

SRI AUROBINDO: They may try to dislodge them from their occupied positions.

NIRODBARAN: It is surprising how in two weeks the Germans have marched across Belgium. It reminds me of Genghis Khan.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not marched but driven back the Allies.

PURANI: Duff Cooper has written an article on the likelihood of America joining the war if the Allies are defeated. Otherwise, he says, America will be the next victim.

SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. But Hitler won't turn so soon towards America. He will turn first towards the Balkans and, if Stalin comes in the way, march into Russia. After gaining Asia and Africa he will turn towards America. You know Washington's three

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dreams: First, war with England, Second, the American Civil War, third, the destruction of America by all mixed races, coloured and white. I suppose Hitler will pick out an American gaulieter as he has done in Austria.

NIRODBARAN: What is a gaulieter?

SRI AUROBINDO: Gau is province; gaulieter is province-protector. Austria has been divided into various provinces and each put under a gaulieter. The same has been done in Norway, Denmark and Belgium. I hope he won't succeed in America. As I said, his aim is clearly a world-empire.

NIRODBARAN: If Hitler is defeated what will happen to the Being guiding him?

SRI AUROBINDO: He will try to possess somebody else, for instance, Stalin. But I should say Stalin is himself a devil. He is cold and calculating, not suitable for the action of such Beings.

NIRODBARAN: The Mother said that Stalin is an incarnation of the Devil.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

NIRODBARAN: In that case, Dilip says, he is worse than a case of possession. How does he allow dancing, music, etc. in Russia?

SRI AUROBINDO: That he can do. He is an intellectual Asura. All such things are a device to keep the people contented. But if they do go against the State they are shot. And what sort of music? Folk songs? Communism is a means for keeping power in his hands. Hitler's Being is a Rakshasa.¹

NIRODBARAN: Are these Beings immortal?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, they can be destroyed but they may be born again.

NIRODBARAN: In the physical world?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, in their own world. (After some time) Gamelin is said to have shot himself.

PURANI: No, that is the German news.

SRI AUROBINDO: He should have. I saw his latest picture. It is the face of a man already defeated, extremely weak. His chin is catastrophic.

NIRODBARAN: Pétain has something.

SRI AUROBINDO : Yes, he is a man with a massive force but he is too old.

NIRODBARAN: He may be able to use the force.

¹A vital, not an intellectual, demon.

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SRI AUROBINDO: But, as I said, he is too old. Still he seems to have kept his intellectual powers intact, considering that he has turned Spain from an enemy into an ally.

PURANI: Yes, he has great influence over Franco.

NIRODBARAN: Dilip has become a convert to the Supermind. (Sri Aurobindo made an expression of pretended surprise.) Yes, he says only the Supermind can save humanity. If he has mocked at the Supermind, it was all in jest. (Sri Aurobindo began to laugh.) But he is in despair and wants to leave this sorrowful world.

SRI AUROBINDO: He will have to come back into a still more sorrowful world.

PURANI: When this war is over, there may again be a recrudescence of war after twenty-five years or so, unless some solution is arrived at.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, we have developed the system of nations and now we have to develop the unity of nations; unless they do that there will be always these recrudescences, till Nature forces us to come to a solution of the problem.

PURANI: In The Psychology of Social Development,¹ you have said the same thing. The nations and tribes that resisted had to perish.

SRI AUROBINDO: It was the same condition in France before the restoration of monarchy. On one side humanity is locked together; on the other side the national egos remain. The unity has of course to be a living unity, not like that of the Roman Empire in which the same old organisations and institutions remained.

PURANI : Now that the Allies and the Belgians have been forced to pool their economies, they may form such an alliance even after the war.

SRI AUROBINDO: Unless they do, there is no solution. The big Powers must form some sort of a system; it need not be a rigid system. If the small neutrals find that it is workable they may join. It has to be some sort of a federation but not the bungle and mess of the League of Nations.

EVENING

The radio reported that the Germans have advanced through a gap in the British position.

¹Now published as The Human Cycle.

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PURANI: So they left a gap for the Germans.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Yes, what on earth did they leave this gap for?

PURANI: Perhaps in their retreat they couldn't keep up their line.

SATYENDRA: Now the British say that they are in the town of Narvik.

PURANI: First seven miles, then five, then two miles away!

SpiAuROBiNDO: Yes, they will explain that Narvik is in hilly mountainous country, covered with snow, no roads and communications. They are slowly closing round without the loss of a single man. They began in a gentlemanly way.

SATYENDRA: Yes, by dropping leaflets and making reconnaissance.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not in what they would call the savage way of the French who took Arras in one night? Only when the Germans dive-bombed did they become wild -that too only in their navy and air force.

SATYENDRA: Because on land they couldn't do anything.

PURANI: Gandhi seems to be in a conciliatory mood now -he will leave no stone unturned, he says. He will try to come to a compromise, perhaps.

SRI AUROBINDO: He ought to, unless Jawaharlal prevents him.

PURANI: Jawaharlal is not satisfied.

SRI AUROBINDO: He will never be satisfied. That is why I say unless he stands in the way. Gandhi is now under his influence.

PURANI: But C. R. and Patel may exert some influence too.

SRI AUROBINDO: England is trying to make up with Russia, it seems. They say that Russia has asked Germany and Italy to keep out of the Balkans. That would explain Russia's massing of troops on the German frontier. Italy of course will plunge towards the Balkans if she can pluck up courage.

This book of prophecy says things which are now obviously wrong. He says Fritch, who died in Poland, would reorganise Germany after Hitler's death. I can understand now what the astrologers do. They see the position, give a general impression of things which may come true. But when they particularise, they make mistakes and try to wriggle out of them. This man says that the annexation of Poland was the last successful result of Hitler's ambition. Then he goes on to say that after Hitler and Stalin have

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gone, Russia and Germany will make a military alliance and create a new type of State. And then he pays high tributes to Chamberlain.

PURANI: Yes, he makes him out a saint.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, saint, apostle, everything.

25 MAY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Satyendra): Have you read of the retreat of the Allies?

SATYENDRA (smiling): No!

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they have got away safely from Boulogne. The Allies means, of course, the British. (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: What do they lack? Why are they giving way like that?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't understand. The German advance -troops are not numerous and still the Allies can't tackle them. They can only hold out for a while and then retreat. For two or three days the French have been saying that they are in the suburb of Amiens, as at Narvik—closing round.

SATYENDRA: They don't say now "according to plan". (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: They go according to their old order and schedule while Churchill speaks of assault and attack.

SATYENDRA: Order and schedule don't come to much.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is a new method of warfare now. If they stick to their old method, then they can't hold on. It is like the football game. When one party makes a rush, the other can't say, "Let us wait to put the field in order." They can't go and occupy an unassigned place because it is unassigned. (Laughter) It is the famous story of Government House being on fire. They wrote to the headquarters, asking what they should do. The headquarters after some time, wrote back, "Put out the fire." (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: The Germans intend to attack England, they say.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is why they are capturing the ports. Otherwise they would have turned towards Paris.

PURANI: In the course of a talk, Schomberg was telling me that volunteers are not of much use now as it is a mechanised warfare for which much training is needed.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but it is not that the Allies have no mechanised troops. Besides, mechanised troops operate in open fields. In cities like Amiens they can't. There it is the infantry that has to lead the attack. France has a big army and England has a British Expeditionary Force and is now calling up reservists.

SATYENDRA: America is proposing to send all her planes for the defence of the Allies.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not all -only as many as she can spare. One senator has said that America's frontier is the Rhine. But even that limited proposal has been turned down.

SATYENDRA: The frontier is shifting. Now it is Boulogne.

SRI AUROBINDO: Still the Rhine is also there.

SATYENDRA: The new English law has not come into force yet, against private property.

SRI AUROBINDO: Private property? That would be the last thing to be touched.

PURANI: At present their aim is control of labour and industries to prevent profiteering.

SATYENDRA: And facilitate manufacture of armament.

SRI AUROBINDO: The English have never gone so far before. They are arresting M.P.'s even. In France it is quite traditional to arrest suspects in times of stress and revolution. Liberty is in a bad state everywhere in spite of Chamberlain and Roosevelt.

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: The Germans have passed through that convenient gap of thirty miles.

SATYENDRA: Not thirty, but twenty-five.

SRI AUROBINDO: Now they have narrowed it to twenty-five.

PURANI: The B.B.C. says it won't give news any more. The public gets scared. But they will be still more scared by the German news.

SRI AUROBINDO: They will give news of Norway, perhaps (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: It seems the two contingents of Germans have separated the B.E.F. from the French. In that case they will be sandwiched by the Germans. One will come from the north and the other from the south.

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SRI AUROBINDO: From the north? The Germans are in Antwerp; that is north-east. They can't make a flanking movement from there. They can only attack from the front. And it is only the advance troops of the Germans that have passed through the gap. The main body is behind. If they bring up the main body, there will be a great strategical danger of the French making an attack on their flank. This gap must have been left by the B.E.F. during their wonderful "strategical retreat" from Namur. It could not have been there at the beginning. If it had been, the Germans would have rushed forward at that time.

NIRODBARAN : If it is only the advance troops occupying, they can't be numerous. And how could they occupy the ports?

SRI AUROBINDO: There was no defence in the ports.

NIRODBARAN: Churchill says that the Germans rushed through the breach in the French army and attacked the B.E.F. from behind.

SRI AUROBINDO: That was earlier. Later it was through the gap left by the British army.

PURANI: Udar says that there is much anti-British feeling outside.

SRI AUROBINDO: Dara writes from Hyderabad that except for himself and Sir Akbar everybody is anti-British.

NIRODBARAN: Why are the Muslims anti-British?

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? They don't want British Raj, they want Muslim Raj. I would not mind that if it were not for Hitler. Even Mussolini would not matter if he defeated the Allies, because he is not a man to conquer the world. Stalin is serious not because of himself but because of his Communism. Huque says he wants to forget that he is a Muslim Leaguer and asks the Congress and Mahasabha to forget their own parties and merge for a common object. The trouble is: as soon as the danger is over, they will start again. You have seen what the Raja of Mahmudabad has said?

NIRODBARAN: No.

SRI AUROBINDO: He wants to have separate Muslim provinces and to impose Muslim laws on all. He says there are very good laws in Islam. No usury, prohibition, and so on.

NIRODBARAN: That shows what they will do if they have their way, and they blame the Congress!

SRI AUROBINDO: They will start civil war at once. But I don't see how their Pakistan scheme can be successful if the Frontier,

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Baluchistan and Sind don't want it. In that case only Punjab and Bengal remain. In Punjab the Sikhs and Hindus won't stand being Muslimised, I suppose.

NIRODBARAN: The Sikhs won't.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Hindus will, you mean? And in Bengal, I don't know what they will do. Perhaps they will wail like Sotuda.

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